Horus Manure: Debunking the Jesus/Horus Connection

horus manure

This article was published in the Nov-Dec 2012 issue of Catholic Answers Magazine.

Many atheists, neo-pagans, and other disbelievers of Christianity claim the story of Jesus Christ was borrowed from earlier mythologies. In recent years, a claim has been making the rounds that Jesus is based on the Egyptian god, Horus.

Who was Horus?
Horus is one of the oldest recorded deities in the ancient Egyptian religion. Often depicted as a falcon or a man with a falcon head, Horus was believed to be the god of the sun and of war. Initially he appeared as a local god, but over time the ancient Egyptians came to believe the reigning pharaoh was a manifestation of Horus (cf. Encyclopedia Britannica, “Horus”).

What about Jesus?
The skeptical claims being made about Jesus are not always the same. In some versions he was a persuasive teacher whose followers later attempted to deify him by adopting aspects of earlier god-figures, while in others he is merely an amalgamation of myths and never really existed at all. Both versions attempt to provide evidence that the Gospel accounts of the life of Christ are rip-offs.

In the 2008 documentary film Religulous (whose name is a combination of religion and ridiculous), erstwhile comedian and political commentator Bill Maher confronts an unprepared Christian with this claim. Here is part of their interaction.

Bill Maher: But the Jesus story wasn’t original.
Christian man: How so?
Maher: Written in 1280 B.C., the Book of the Dead describes a God, Horus. Horus is the son of the god Osiris, born to a virgin mother. He was baptized in a river by Anup the Baptizer who was later beheaded. Like Jesus, Horus was tempted while alone in the desert, healed the sick, the blind, cast out demons, and walked on water. He raised Asar from the dead. “Asar” translates to “Lazarus.” Oh, yeah, he also had twelve disciples. Yes, Horus was crucified first, and after three days, two women announced Horus, the savior of humanity, had been resurrected.

Maher is only repeating things that are and believed by many people today. Similar claims are made in movies such as Zeitgeist and Religulous and in pseudo-academic books such as Christ in Egypt: The Jesus-Horus Connection and Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth.

Often Christians are not prepared for this type of encounter, and some are even swayed by this line of argumentation.  Maher’s tirade provides a good summary of the claims, so let’s deconstruct it, one line at a time.

Written in 1280 BC, the Book of the Dead describes a God, Horus.
In fact, there are many “books of the dead.” But there is no single, official Book of the Dead. The books are collections of ancient Egyptian spells that were believed to help the deceased on their journey to the afterlife. The title Book of the Dead comes from an Arabic label referring to the fact that the books were mostly found with mummies (cf. The Oxford Guide to Egyptian Mythology, “Funerary Literature”). Some of these texts contain vignettes depicting the god Horus, but they don’t tell us much about him.

Our information about Horus comes from a variety of archaeological sources. What we do know from the most recent scholarship on the subject is that there were many variations of the story, each of them popularized at different times and places throughout the 5,000-year span of ancient Egyptian history. Egyptologists recognize the possibility that these differences may have been understood as aspects or facets of the same divine persona, but they nevertheless refer to them as distinct Horus-gods (cf. The Oxford Guide to Egyptian Mythology, “Horus”).

Part of the problem with the “Jesus is Horus” claim is that in order to find items that even partially fit the life story of Jesus, advocates of the view must cherry-pick bits of myth from different epochs of Egyptian history. This is possible today because modern archaeology has given us extensive knowledge of Egypt’s religious beliefs and how they changed over time, making it possible to cite one detail from this version of a story and another from that.

But the early Christians, even if they had wanted to base the Gospels on the Horus myths, would have had no way to do so. They might have known what was believed about Horus in the Egypt of their day, but they would have had no access to the endless variations of the stories that laid buried in the sands until archaeologists started digging them up in the 1800s.

Another part of the problem is that the claimed parallels between Jesus and Horus contain half-truths, distortions, and flat-out falsehoods. For example . . .

Horus is the son of the god Osiris, born to a virgin mother.
The mother of Horus was believed to be the goddess Isis. Her husband, the god Osiris, was killed by his enemy Seth, the god of the desert, and later dismembered. Isis managed to retrieve all of Osiris’s body parts except for his phallus, which was thrown into the Nile and eaten by catfish. (I’m not making this up).  Isis used her goddess powers to temporarily resurrect Osiris and fashion a golden phallus. She was then impregnated, and Horus was conceived. However this story may be classified, it is not a virgin birth.

He was baptized in a river by Anup the Baptizer, who was later beheaded.
There is no character named Anup the Baptizer in ancient Egyptian mythology. This is the concoction of a 19th-century English poet and amateur Egyptologist by the name of Gerald Massey (see sidebar 2 below). Massey is the author of several books on the subject of Egyptology; however, professional Egyptologists have largely ignored his work. In fact, his writing is held in such low regard in archaeological circles that it is difficult to find references to him in reputable modern publications.

In the book Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection (Stellar House Publishing, 2009), author D. M. Murdoch, drawing heavily from Gerald Massey, identifies “Anup the Baptizer” as the Egyptian god Anubis. Murdoch then attempts to illustrate parallels between Anubis and John the Baptist.

Some evidence exists in Egyptian tomb paintings and sculptures to support the idea that a ritual washing was done during the coronation of Pharaohs, but it is always depicted as having been done by the gods. This indicates that it may have been understood as a spiritual event that likely never happened in reality (cf. Alan Gardiner, “The Baptism of Pharaoh,” The Journal of Egyptian Archaeology, vol. 36). This happened only to kings (if it happened to them at all), and one searches in vain to find depictions of Horus being ritually washed by Anubis.

Like Jesus, Horus was tempted while alone in the desert.
The companion guide to the film Zeitgeist outlines the basis for this claim by explaining, “As does Satan with Jesus, Set (aka Seth) attempts to kill Horus. Set is the ‘god of the desert’ who battles Horus, while Jesus is tempted in the desert by Satan” (p. 23).

Doing battle with the “god of the desert” is not the same as being tempted while alone in the desert; and according to the Gospel accounts, Satan did not attempt to kill Jesus there (cf. Matt. 4, Mark 1:12-13, Luke 4:1-13).

The relationship between Horus and Seth in the ancient Egyptian religion was quite different than the relationship between Jesus and Satan. While Seth and Horus were often at odds with each other, it was believed that their reconciliation was what allowed the pharaohs to rule over a unified country. It was believed that the pharaoh was a “Horus reconciled to Seth, or a gentleman in whom the spirit of disorder had been integrated” (The Oxford Guide to Egyptian Mythology, “Seth”). In stark contrast, there is never any reconciliation between Jesus and Satan in Scripture.

Healed the sick, the blind, cast out demons, and walked on water.
The Metternich Stella, a monument from the 4th century B.C., tells a story in which Horus is poisoned by Seth and brought back to life by the god Thoth at the request of his mother, Isis. The ancient Egyptians used the spell described on this monument to cure people. It was believed that the spirit of Horus would dwell within the sick, and they would be cured the same way he was. This spiritual indwelling is a far cry from the physical healing ministry of Christ. Horus did not travel the countryside laying his hands on sick people and restoring them to health.

He raised Asar from the dead. “Asar” translates to “Lazarus.”
The name Osirus is a Greek transliteration of the Egyptian name Asar. As I mentioned earlier, Osirus is the father of Horus, and, according to the myth, he was killed by Seth and briefly brought back to life by Isis in order to conceive Horus.  It was not Horus who raised “Asar” from the dead. It was his mother.

The name Lazarus is actually derived from the Hebrew word Eleazar meaning “God has helped.” This name was common among the Jews of Jesus’ time. In fact, two figures in the New Testament bear this name (cf. John 11, Luke 16:19-31).

Oh, yeah, he also had twelve disciples.
Again, this claim finds its origin in the work of Gerald Massey (Ancient Egypt: The Light of the World, book 12), which points to a mural depicting “the twelve who reap the harvest.” But Horus does not appear in the mural.

In the various Horus myths, there are indications of the four “Sons of Horus,” or six semi-gods, who followed him, and at times there were various numbers of human followers, but they never add up to twelve. Only Massey arrives at this number, and he does so only by referencing the mural with no Horus on it.

Yes, Horus was crucified first.
In many of the books and on the websites that attempt to make this connection, it is often pointed out that there are several ancient depictions of Horus standing with his arms spread in cruciform.  One can only answer this with a heartfelt “So what?”  A depiction of a person standing with his arms spread is not unusual, nor is it evidence that the story of a crucified savior predates that of Jesus Christ.

We do have extensive evidence from extra-biblical sources that the Romans around the time of Christ practiced crucifixion as a form of capital punishment. Not only that, but we have in the Bible actual eyewitness accounts of Jesus’ crucifixion. On the other hand, there is no historical evidence at all to suggest that the ancient Egyptians made use of this type of punishment.

And after three days, two women announced Horus, the savior of humanity, had been resurrected.
As I explained before, the story of the child Horus dying and being brought back to life is described on the Metternich Stella, which in no way resembles the sacrificial death of Jesus. Christ did not die as a child, only to be brought back to life because his grieving mother went to the animal-headed god of magic.

The mythology surrounding Horus is closely tied with the pharaohs, because they were believed to be Horus in life and Osirus in death. With the succession of pharaohs over the centuries came new variations on the myth. Sometimes Horus was believed to be the god of the sky, and at other times he was believed to be the god of war, at other times both; but he was never described as a “savior of humanity.”

Combating the never-ending list of parallels
If you do an Internet search on this subject, you will come across lists of supposed parallels between Jesus and Horus that are much longer than Bill Maher’s filmic litany. What they all have in common is that they do not cite their sources.

Should you encounter people who try to challenge you with these claims, ask them to explain where it is they got their information. Many times you will find that they originate with Gerald Massey or one of his contemporaries. Sometimes they have been repeated and expanded on by others. But these claims have little or no connection to the facts.

You should challenge the person making the claim to produce a primary source or a statement from a scholarly secondary source that has a footnote that can be checked. Then make sure the sources being quoted come from scholars with a Ph.D. in a relevant field, such as a person who teaches Egyptology at the university level.

Due to the mass of misinformation on the Internet and in print on this subject, it is important to respond to these claims using credible sources. Fortunately, there are many good books on Egypt and Egyptology in print. But there are also bad ones, so make sure to verify the author’s credentials before purchasing them.

The study of ancient Egypt has come a long way since its beginning in the 1800s, and new discoveries are being made even today that improve upon our understanding of the subject. It’s safe to say they will do nothing to bolster the alleged Jesus-Horus connection.

The Horus mythology developed over a period of 5,000 years, and as a result it can be a complex subject to tackle. But you don’t have to be an Egyptologist to answer all of these claims. You just need to know where to look for the answers—and to be aware of the claims’ flawed sources.

Sidebar 1:
A brief history of modern Egyptology

The Rosetta Stone

Modern Egyptology really begins with the French campaign in Egypt and Syria initiated by Napoleon Bonaparte around 1798. Among other things, the French established a scientific exploration of the region.

In 1799, a soldier named Pierre-Francois Bouchard discovered the Rosetta Stone, which contained a bilingual text that eventually led to the translation of Egyptian hieroglyphs. Prior to this, our knowledge of ancient Egypt’s 5,000-year history was limited to what was known through the writings of pre-Christian Greek historians such as Herodotus and Strabo.

The discovery of the Rosetta Stone led to a renewed interest by the Europeans in all things ancient Egypt, commonly referred to now as “Egyptomania.”  It was not until nearly a century later that Egyptology as an academic discipline began to come into its own. Since that time, we have a much better understanding of ancient Egyptian history and culture.

Sidebar 2:
Massey scholarship

Gerald Massey

When researching the supposed Egyptian influences on Christianity, inevitably one comes across the name Gerald Massey. Massey was an English poet and amateur Egyptologist who lived from 1828 to 1907. He is the author of three books on the subject: The Book of the Beginnings, The Natural Genesis, and Ancient Egypt: The Light of the World. Because his books represent some of the earliest attempts to draw comparisons between the Christian and Egyptian religions, other writers attempting to draw these comparisons frequently cite them.

One recent example is the book Christ in Egypt; The Horus-Jesus Connection by D.M. Murdoch. In it the author states: “This present analysis of the claims regarding the correspondences between the Egyptian and Christian religions is not dependent on Massey’s work for the most part,” yet she devotes an entire chapter of the book to defending the authenticity of Massey’s scholarship (something she does not feel called to do for anyone else she quotes in her book) and thereafter adopting many of the same comparisons.

Critics of Massey’s work often point out that he had no formal education in the area of Egyptology. While this is a valid criticism, I think it is also important to point out that the study of ancient Egyptian religion has advanced far beyond what was known in the 19th century. Not only is much of Massey’s scholarship built on wild speculation, it is also the product of an academic discipline still in its infancy.

97 Thoughts on “Horus Manure: Debunking the Jesus/Horus Connection

  1. Bill Entrikin on October 26, 2012 at 11:06 am said:

    Great article Jon. Nice job of picking apart those false statements.

  2. Maggie on October 27, 2012 at 8:44 pm said:

    And after concocting this hoax, the Apostles all willingly died to preserve it? NOT! LOL

  3. Isn’t it enough proof that NO ONE has ever claimed to see an oil slick or an old bagel with the image of Horus?

  4. Chris M on October 27, 2012 at 9:05 pm said:

    Well written,simple to understand. I have heard this claim many times before and your rebuttal is clear, concise and easy to understand. Keep up the great work.

  5. Harry Wallington on October 28, 2012 at 5:09 pm said:

    It’s good to see support for the historical, as opposed to mythicist view – of Jesus.

  6. My first reaction to seeing these claims was, “Wow, this is nothing like what I remember of Egyptian mythology!” With good reason, it seems. Maybe the best response to such nonsense is to point the accuser to a good reference on Egyptian mythology.

  7. David Wagner on October 28, 2012 at 6:51 pm said:

    I knew that the comparison between Horus’ birth and Jesus’ didn’t stand because Isis and Osiris had sexual relations. Mary was miraculously conceived and did not know a man.

    I also knew that regardless of whether or not Horus was crucified and rose again three days later, it was certainly not for the purpose of atoning for the sins of humanity.

    But I appreciate very much the full account given in this article. Thank you.

  8. Someone pulled their subscription from this site because they felt that the site is quoting blasphmony and all blasphmony should be treated with a slap in the face and no rebuttle.
    I believe that it is the work of our clergy to teach us how to defend ourselves in the midst of the enemy and rebuke him. By slapping and ignoring the enemy you are playing right into his hands…you are using anger and hiding which are tools of the evil one.

  9. Mariusz on October 28, 2012 at 9:57 pm said:

    And the most important fact to consider is this: Bill Maher is a standup comedian, not a religious scholar or an Egyptologist. Why even bother with the badly regurgitated nonsense he spouts?

    • JONS1973 on October 30, 2012 at 7:08 am said:

      I took the time to reply to this claim because, as a former atheist, it’s something I believed myself. It doesn’t take much to sway the poorly catechized. Bill Maher is just a vehicle. He summed up the claim pretty well in his movie, but there are a ton of books and movies that make the same claims.

  10. I think you may have the etymology on “Asar” reversed. I believe “Asar” is actually the original Ancient Egyptian, and “Osiris” is the Greek transliteration.

    • JONS1973 on October 30, 2012 at 7:18 am said:

      I think you’re right. I’ll do some double checking when I have time and make the necessary corrections. Thanks for pointing that out. :)

  11. Fr. Robert Coogan on October 28, 2012 at 11:37 pm said:

    There are many myths throughout the world that make us think of the story of Jesus. It should not surprise us. St. Justin Martyr believed that these myths were seeds planted to prepare the pagans for the Gospel when it finally arrived. The Second Vatican Council picked up on this concept of the “seeds of the Gospel”. We are used to hearing of this in terms of Aristotelian philosophy, but Justin specifically mentions drama and myth as well as philosophy. We know the story of Prometheus was seen as a prefiguring of Christ by many Fathers of the Church. It lacks logic to think that, if Horus had fallen out of favor, someone would try to build a new religion on his story. Why would they expect that it would be successful, if Horus was not?

  12. I have fun with, cause I discovered just what I used to be taking a look for. You’ve ended my 4 day lengthy hunt! God Bless you man. Have a nice day. Bye

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  14. Joe Paul on October 29, 2012 at 10:19 am said:

    Great article on a topic that I like some Catholics have heard from time to time depending on the futility of the atheist or secularist we are speaking to. Can you possibly update the post with footnotes as to the sources of the material? As it is now, it sounds like a great refutation of the Jesus/Horus myth however the minute someone asks for our proof I will as dumb as Bill Maher and his ilk. Help defeat the ilk! Help us Jon Sorerson, you are our only hope!

  15. Danny S on October 29, 2012 at 8:42 pm said:

    Great article, but I didn’t see a reference to any specific Egyptology works, or even scholars. I would like to something like that in this post. But also, let me know if I am just missing it.

    • Danny S on October 29, 2012 at 8:45 pm said:

      Okay, never mind. I take my comment back. I do see sources. But I think it would be an extra advantage to your arguments if you listed all the sources you used at the bottom of the article as well. Just a thought.

  16. Pingback: Bad Art and Horus Manure — The Curt Jester

  17. We ougt to make our own movie, called “Atheistupid”. Bill Maher alone would make quite an interesting interview if confronted with the BS he presented in Religulous. hehe

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  20. Pingback: Bad arguments against Christianity. Part two (2) | Life and a Christian.

  21. What about the story of NOAH? IT
    t was a story made by GIGLAMESH in Iraq 1500yrs before jesus. How do we explain that?

    • JONS1973 on August 13, 2014 at 6:18 am said:

      The Old Testament is older than Jesus, so the dating of Gilgamesh doesn’t bother me. Many ancient cultures have flood stories. Perhaps that is because there was a great flood in ancient times. The story of a Noah is probably the one that was passed down in Jewish culture. There are a few plausible theories in this regard. Perhaps I’ll write something on this when I can find the time.

  22. From the article:
    Should you encounter people who try to challenge you with these claims, ask them to explain where it is they got their information.

    And where do you get your information? From the bible? Unless you can prove the existence of God, the bible has zero credibility.

    • JONS1973 on August 12, 2014 at 5:23 am said:

      I cited all the sources where I got my information in the article. What does proving the existence of God have anything at all to do with whether or not Jesus and Horus have parallel stories?

      • All stories excepting the Jesus story are false. All the supermen, sons of god, miracle workers,the infallible, and all powerful gods are made up. The only true story is the Jesus one because we have proof. Whoops, we don’t. Well anyway be sure to send us a check. Our hands are too soft for work so give us ten percent of the gross and don’t tax us because we believe we really do. What does proving the existence of god have to do with whether or not Jesus and Horus have parallel stories? Mister they were both said to be gods. Don’t you get it?

        • JONS1973 on September 1, 2014 at 5:58 am said:

          Proving the existence of God is beside the point. For the sake of argument, let’s say no God exists, and Jesus and Horus are both fictional characters. All that is left now is the claim that they have parallel stories. They don’t have parallel stories, and claims that they do are based on outdated research and speculation. That’s the point of my article.

  23. Well, because if there is no God, there was no Jesus. This is basically arguing over two mythical characters.

    • JONS1973 on August 13, 2014 at 6:10 am said:

      That argument is pretty weak. If there’s no God, that would only prove that Jesus was not divine. It wouldn’t prove Jesus never existed. The argument in my article is that the attributes of Jesus and Horus are nothing alike. Whether you believe in either one is irrelevant.

  24. baden snaxx on August 17, 2014 at 11:13 am said:

    I noticed you did not give a full explanation of how Isis became impregnated with Horus. There was no physical contact, she hovered above Osisris, & became pregnant. I presume you were aware of this & didn’t include it because it weakens your argument. How different was Horus’ conception to that of Jesus?
    You also didn’t mention that the Egyptian Empire encompassed the Holy Land more than a few times. The people of this region would be more than knowledgeable about Egyptian religions, 1000’s of years before the arrival of modern archaeology.
    Crucifixion was carried out in Egypt, in fact, the evidence suggests that’s where it started.
    Your research is weak, & your explanation dishonest, but oh so apologetic.

    • JONS1973 on August 18, 2014 at 12:33 am said:

      There was no physical contact. According to the legend, Isis was impregnated by a prosthetic phallus. The Egyptian empire did at times encompass the area of Jerusalem, but that does not negate my point. The Egyptians themselves were not fully aware of the various Horus legends. As far as crucifixion, there is no evidence that it was used by Egyptians. I cited the latest scholarly research on the subject. If I am supposed to take any of your points seriously, then perhaps you should do the same.

      • baden snaxx on August 18, 2014 at 11:52 am said:

        What you are attempting is historical revision in the name of your religion, it is both repugnant & immoral.
        According to Crucifixion in Antiquity, Crucifixion was popular in many countries. The Assyrians, Phoenicians, Persians, Babylonians, Macedonians,Romans, & the Carthagians. The Carthagians apparently learned it from the Egyptians, who crucified people on trees. Genesis 40;19 has long been thought to be referencing crucifixion in Egypt.
        You misrepresent the God Set. yes, he was god of the desert, he was also God of storms, chaos, & violence. But more importantly he was seen as evil. The people of Ancient Egypt saw Set in the same way as Christians see Satan.
        It is clear in Egyptian religious texts that Isis hovered above the phallus of Osiris, & in that way became impregnated with Horus. There was no physical contact, nowhere does it say, or suggest there was. There was no proof, or claim, that Isis was a virgin.
        You clearly have not read the Pyramid texts, the Coffin texts,Book of Going Out, book of Gates, the Amduat. If you had, you would have been aware of the above, & the resurrection of Osiris, by Horus, something which you deny occurred. One of the most well known facts of Ancient Egypt.
        There are many statues, depictions of Isis, seated holding the infant Horus, in the exact same pose as depicted in devotional works of art of Mary, & the infant Jesus.
        In fact there is a picture in a book written by a Dr J Lundy, of Horus raising his father Osiris from the dead. Dr Lundy’s book is Monumental Christianity, he was a Reverend, & devout Christian. He relates how the story of Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead, as in the Gospel of St John, is without doubt taken from the story of Horus & Osiris. Osiris’
        resurrection takes place in the city of Any, it is not a coincidence that Bethany, or Bethanu was the place of Lazarus’ resurrection, Beth being the Hebrew word for house, placed in front of Any it becomes Bethany/Bethanu.
        If you read the Pyramid Texts alongside the Gospel of St John, the similarity of the two stories of resurrection is obvious, they are undeniably the same story.
        Did you know that Christian Coptics shouted “Jesus, Horus” as part of a prayer during childbirth.
        It’s ridiculous to claim the people, who had been under the Egyptian Empire, had no knowledge of the religion, Gods of Ancient Egypt. On what do you base this claim, because it’s long been accepted that myths, religions were chiefly spread by the invading armies of antiquity. Egypt is mentioned in the Bible many times. If Exodus is true, & factual, then Moses & the Israelites would have been well educated to the Egyptian culture.
        These similar stories are not of recent invention, as you also claim, Christians, & others have known about this since Christianity was forming. Dr Lundy brought it up in the mid 19th century. Bishop Theodurus attempted to destroy the Temple of Isis, at Philae, he left an inscription boasting of this destruction. Pope Gregory XVI, again aware of the connection, sent an expedition under the guise of archaeologists in 1841, & what was left of any importance was totally destroyed, or stolen & brought to the Vatican.
        As I said before your research was weak, you have misinterpreted facts, omitted facts, & denied what is fact, in an attempt to justify your argument. It is dishonest, & typically apologetic.

        • JONS1973 on August 18, 2014 at 10:57 pm said:

          There is no evidence at all that the Egyptians practiced anything like crucifixion. Hanging someone from a tree is just not the same thing, and even if it were, there is zero evidence in the historical record that this happened to Horus or any other Egyptian deity.

          I did not misrepresent Set. I was quoting from the Oxford Guide of Egyptian Mythology. The people of ancient Egypt did not see Set as an equivalent of Satan, and how they regarded him depended largely on what period and province you are talking about.

          No one takes Lundy’s scholarship seriously. Like Massey and others from his period, his work is full of historical inaccuracies and speculation, which is why I used only the most recent scholarship in writing the article.

          Your claim about the cities of “Any” and “Bethany” are parallels drawn from English words. In fact, the Hebrew word for house is Bayit, not Beth.

          If you can show me which pyramid texts read exactly like the Gospel of John, I would be happy to read them. All of the pyramid texts I have read are not narratives at all. They are collections of spells.

          No Coptic Christians shout “Jesus Horus” during childbirth. This is straight out of D.M. Murdock’s arguments and it’s silly.

          Finally, I did not say that the Jews of Jesus time had no knowledge of Egyptian religion. What I said is that the Christians of Jesus time would have had little, if any, knowledge of the literally hundreds of variations of the Horus mythology that existed thousands of years prior. I’m sure Moses would have been well educated in Egyptian mythology since he was raised as an Egyptian, but that doesn’t mean he or any other Jew would have passed that on to their children after the Exodus.

          Your claim about Pope Gregory XVI destroying the evidence is a convenient claim for you, but there’s no proof. Anyone can concoct a conspiracy theory based on an absence of evidence.

          The points you keep bringing up are based on outdated scholarship that was speculative to begin with, and has been repeated by hacks like D.M. Murdock and others.

  25. Your only “historical” references to Jesus are those from the Bible. So, you are basing your information all on one source which you cannot prove is true, nor does is it have chronological continuity. Show me other “historical” sources that are able to collaborate and support the Bible and perhaps you will have some ground to stand upon. What’s funny is that your supposed savior’s story is so similar to MULTIPLE other religions. Every large culture had some sort of savior figure. Also, Christianity is a religion based upon Judaism – a religion whose people doesn’t even believe there was a Christ. Nor do they believe in heaven or hell. Christianity supposedly is a religion of peace and forgiveness, yet it has subjugated, murdered, and committed more atrocities than any other group in history.

    • JONS1973 on August 18, 2014 at 1:20 am said:

      Whether or not there was a historical Jesus is beside the point. The claim I am refuting in this article is the one that says Jesus and Horus have parallel stories, and they don’t. As far as other historical sources that corroborate the Gospels, I have written about that on my blog several times.

  26. baden snaxx on August 21, 2014 at 1:03 pm said:

    Before I reply in full to what you have written above, I would like to clarify an important issue, & I am sure you will be helpful in answering a question.
    You dismiss the veracity of my claims, saying that my sources aren’t credible.
    You say “Which is why I used the most recent scholarship in writing the article”
    The story of Horus raising Osiris from the dead is well known. Something that you deny. Stating this never happened, which is wrong. It is an important aspect of the Ancient Egyptian religion.
    I cannot imagine why the latest scholarly reports didn’t cover this occurrence, & why they gave you the impression it never happened.
    If so, how credible are these reports?
    I suggest they have no credibility whatsoever.
    Or did they tell you that this happened?

    • JONS1973 on August 22, 2014 at 2:33 am said:

      It must not be that important because the pyramid texts that relate the story of Osiris say that he was raised from the dead in a zombie-like state by Isis, at which point she breathes life into Osiris and copulates with him (this is popular in the pyramid texts) or she copulates with a phallus she fashions when she can’t find the real one (this is in Plutarch’s version). There is also a version where Isis may have been impregnated by a bolt of lightning, but the evidence for this is uncertain. It is only after this that Horus is born in most version. But the most popular version has Isis-not Horus-raising Osiris from the dead. I look forward to your response. I’m sure it will be filled with lots of 19th century speculation.

  27. I find many parallels throughout ancient history that relate to not only Jesus and Horus but many are found in the new testament that parallel The War Of The Jews written by Flavius Josephus. In order to understand the truth one has to go outside of the Bible and do extensive research. There is no way the Gospels or any of the new testament were written by common people. The Romans recognized only two classes of people, the royals and the common. The common had no freedom of speech rights, the royals were the only individuals who were allowed to write and publish literature in those times.

    Those who are deceived do not know that they are deceived!

    • JONS1973 on September 1, 2014 at 5:50 am said:

      If the deceived don’t know they are deceived, then how do you know you are not the one who is deceived? Most of what comprises the New Testament was written around the time of Josephus, so the existence of parallels (depending on what you mean by that) is not really surprising.

  28. BASE121824 on August 30, 2014 at 8:42 pm said:

    This thread has been interesting reading. A microcosm of life really. Back and forth. Tit for tat. I’m right, you’re wrong. I believe religion is slavery. I’d like to think that one day the human race will do what is right and think the notion of god out of existence. However, I’m not that naive. I truly pity those who use so much of their time, resources and effort into defending their faith. Come now. If there really was some Devine power who was capable of creating in one week, what we know has taken billions of years, do you think the world would be like it is today? Greed, envy and an overwhelming lust for power. That is what rules us whether we like it or not.

    • JONS1973 on September 1, 2014 at 6:07 am said:

      Like most Catholics (including Pope Benedict XVI), I don’t believe in an absolutely literal interpretation of the creation account in Genesis. In fact, even the earliest Christians did not insist on a literal interpretation. My colleague Jimmy Akin has a great article about this at catholic.com that you can read at the following link:

      http://www.catholic.com/tracts/creation-and-genesis

      Personally, I believe “thinking the notion of God out of existence” would have disastrous effects.

  29. BASE121924 on September 1, 2014 at 2:19 pm said:

    Disasterous effects? Wouldn’t you agree we’ve seen more than enough disaster that has been caused by peoples insistance on god existing?

    • JONS1973 on September 1, 2014 at 7:10 pm said:

      We’ve seen more disaster from people insisting that he doesn’t.

    • i would say that rmoving religion would be a good idea…. but removing man’s faith in a higher power, (God) would totally be disasterous….. i believe in God, but i have no use for religious ritual or constant bickering over who has interpretted the bible correctly. I put alot of stock in the bible as a historical record AND a poetic vision of metaphor and symbology…. the trick is sifting through which is which. in any case the bible does not stand qalone as a guide for good moral living. in western society however, it is the most popular and readily available source, and a very good one. in history it is true that many horrible and terrible things have been done in the name of chrisianty. Jesus (whether a real person or mythological figure) did say you can tell a good tree if it produces good fruit. you can’t discount the power of belief in God simply because some HUMAN BEINGS have twisted the words for evil gains. Men do this often and not just through chistianity. as for the argument as to whether or not the jesus story borrowed or even flat out copied the horus story, i say who cares???? Jesus taught good moraql living for humans. If a person is intelligent they will see through dogmatic teachings of clergymen and see that Jesus (regardless if real or make believe) taught a VERY simple way to live in peace and be happy in our lives……. love God above all things and love your neighbor as you love yourself…. simple and to the point. i would really be sad if mankind lost touch with that…

  30. Very clearly written response to what is obviously a very populistic attempt at deconstructing the story of christ. I have only two problems with this, and they are serious ones: 1) If you want to be irrefutable, please include the adequate scientific quotations. 2) While it is never implied in this article, many of the comments suggest, that this “Debunking of the Jesus-Horus connection” is widely seen as proof for the authenticity of the story of J.C. as set forth in the bible. That is simply not true. I believe that (pun intended) there is no virgin birth in storytelling and that all myths share similar psycho-social background (Joseph Campbell did a lot on this), so it is not unthinkable that bits and pieces of egyptian, mesopotamian and arab mythology sneaked into the creative process of writing the bible – to believe it word for word is at least as ridiculous as saying the story of JC is a plagiarism of the Horus myth. But maybe it would have been different without those bits and pieces of successful storytelling that permeated the cultural fabric back then.

    • JONS1973 on September 9, 2014 at 4:08 am said:

      I quoted a number of different sources in the article, all of which were the most recent scholarship I could find at the time. I never implied that the debunking of one story is proof of the other. I’ve written about that elsewhere on this blog.

      • well, so you did. But all of those sources (correct me if i’m wrong) supporting your debunking are standard works on egyptian mythology concerning horus and not a possible connection. And the only ones addressing the parallels between egyptian and christian mythology are the ones claiming that there indeed was a connection. Pointing out discrepancies between the horus and the jesus myths doesn’t debunk the possibility that there indeed was a transfer of storytelling between egyptian and christian narration. But hey, maybe you’re the first naming the discrepancies coherently. If so, good for you. But i’m pretty sure there are historical studies concerning the influence of egyptian mythology on early christian storytelling. This however was not my major remark. While you indeed do not imply that debunking one story proofs the other, one should be aware that every text has a certain effect on it’s reader. And judging from the comments to your (well written and respectable, don’t get me wrong i’m not bashing your logic here) text had this effect. It’s a fascinating topic. I’ll try to educate myself on a possible transition of egyptian iconography to christian tradition. It would make sense due to the geographical and historical proximity. After all ancient egyptian beliefs persisted well into the third or even fourth century AD (Frankfurter, 1998, Religion in Roman Egypt: Assimilation and Resistance)

        • Jesus Christ! And here I was thinking I’m having a rational discussion… You directed my attention to other posts in your blog, some of which i now read. Shouldn’t have done that. On gay marriage: “It’s a distortion of an institution spurred on by a large segment of society that has relegated God to the fringes.” – that’s like saying democracy is a distortion of the mesopotamian governmental system. Ever heard of evolution and progress? After reading more (standard muslim bashing, pro life babbling that sounds like abortion supporters would try to prohibit christians from carrying out unwanted pregnancies and the usual “atheism is a belief too”-hypothesis), can’t say that I’m anything but disgusted. To quote G.B.Shaw “No man ever believes that the Bible means what it says: He is always convinced that it says what he means.”

          • JONS1973 on September 9, 2014 at 6:03 pm said:

            So my opinion of gay “marriage” makes me automatically wrong about the subject at hand? That’s rational. :)

          • “So my opinion of gay “marriage” makes me automatically wrong about the subject at hand? That’s rational. :)” —- Oh come on mate, I never said that! I just wanted to express my disgust. And it doesn’t necessary make you wrong, although, when I think about it… would you trust someone with investing your life savings in volatile markets when you find out he cannot add 2+2? Credibility is a bitch. Just out of curiosity: Did you just close the thread, so I wouldn’t respond?

          • JONS1973 on September 9, 2014 at 6:21 pm said:

            No, I didn’t close the thread. I have to say though, you are the master of weak analogies. If an investor can’t add, well that’s crucial to the investment. The two things are related. My opinion on marriage has nothing to do with whether the Jesus and Horus stories have parallels. I cited my sources, all of which are the most recent scholarship on the subject, and you referenced Archarya S, who is a laughing stock, even in atheist circles. Who loses credibility?

          • Indeed you didn’t close it. Appeared so in my browser. Sorry for that. I guess i just lost a little computer credibility here — but please enlighten me, where did I reference Archarya S? I was only aware of a D. Frankfurter and a G.B.Shaw reference. — and I agree, my stock market analogy wasn’t the most inspired one, it was only meant to illustrate how fundamentally self-evident the acceptance of gay marriage is for me, just like adding 2+2.

          • JONS1973 on September 9, 2014 at 7:03 pm said:

            Sorry. That was a different commenter. My apologies. I answer so many comments at this blog and others that I lose track sometimes. You and I have different views on marriage, but I would not hold that against you in this conversation. If you do want to debate the marriage issue with me, I’m happy to. Just not here. I like to keep the comment section as “on topic” as possible.

          • Look, in principle I agree. I’m not happy with the kind of nitpicking I engaged in here. And I might have done so with less clarity than I wanted to, after all english is not my first language. But, with all due respect, some of your views are so incredibly offensive to me, that I don’t think we have enough common ground to discuss much. I am to blame though, I have posted on your wall, not the other way around. If I may, I would like to ask you one think regarding the horus-jesus debate: While I agree that the way this theory is presented by many hardcore atheists is very populist and flashy, it highlights an interesting fact – the interdependence of mythologies. You try to debunk it fully and totally (basically ridicule it, as if there was not on iota of truth in there – again, no judgment here, sorry if the wording seems harsh), on account of discrepancies between the stories. My question now is this: Do you believe in the biblical dogma of christ, and is the possibility of the gospel borrowing from other mythology offensive to you? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to question your faith, I’ll probably even end the discussion right here, I’m just interested why this seems such a passionate subject to you. And why you consider the possibility of ancient egyptian stories influencing the story of christ so completely unthinkable… Or did I get you wrong here?

          • JONS1973 on September 9, 2014 at 11:14 pm said:

            I could not fathom not talking to someone because they disagree with me on something. Even if I find their point of view offensive. But whatever.

            As far as your question goes; I used to believe all of the pagan/Jesus connections until I started to investigate them myself. The vast majority of credible parallels do not occur until after the advent of Christianity. The others, like having ritual meals, using water in religious services, or the occurrence of similar imagery (like the Madonna and child motif) can all be explained by the fact that we live in a closed system. These things are universally important because we are all born of mothers, we all need water and sunlight to survive, and we social creatures all gather to eat. And people from all parts of the world do theses things. It doesn’t mean that all cultures borrowed these ideas from some earlier one. These things more likely developed out of necessity.

            I believe Jesus is who he said he is based on the evidence. You may look at the same evidence and disagree (which is your prerogative), but I believe the story handed down to us is true. Unlike pagan gods, most of who were not believed to have existed in the physical realm, the story of Christ depends on it’s historicity because, as St. Paul wrote, “If Christ was not raised from the dead, then our faith is in vain.” I have lived on both sides of the fence, and I chose the side that I believe best explains the evidence.

            By the way, your English is very good for it being your second language. I am impressed. I am also saddened that you find my views so offensive that you won’t speak with me anymore, but such is life. God bless.

  31. R. Driggers on September 6, 2014 at 9:48 am said:

    Wow. Where do you start on this tortured logic? Horus is one of many, many Christ-stories with identical motifs. What I find the most laughable among your arguments is the so-called “speculation” you accuse of researchers on the Horus – Jesus subject. Speculation? Speculate is what the New Testament IS. It’s pure fiction. Arriving on the scene some 136 years or so “A.D.” That’s in quotes because not even they “Christian Fathers” could nail that down.

    What is a real riot is how Christians were literally laughed at by the early “Pagan” religious peoples. They knew that Jesus never existed and that the whole story was stolen from Krishna (or Christna), Buddha, Dionysus, Mithra, Hercules, etc. etc. Early Christians (and apparently some today) actually preferred ignorant people to participate – learned men were not welcome. There is not credible evidence that Jesus existed and the authors of the New Testament never knew, saw, or “traveled about” with Jesus. Sort of an important thing wouldn’t you think? That’s like me writing a biography on George Washington and saying I speak FOR him with the literal word.

    I’m not here to steal work…..I learned what I learned from a book called “The Christ Conspiracy” by Acharya S where the research is impeccably done and the myth of Jesus laid bare. Take a look at that. It feels like it’s been avoided by name on purpose…….

    • JONS1973 on September 9, 2014 at 4:18 am said:

      Attacking the New Testament doesn’t prove your point, sir. Archarya S’s scholarship is not taken seriously by other mythicists. The reason for this is because, as I pointed out in my article, she relies heavily on outdated scholarship that is now known to be either speculative, or outright false.

      • R. Driggers on September 10, 2014 at 10:15 am said:

        You should challenge the person making the claim to produce a primary source or a statement from a scholarly secondary source that has a footnote that can be checked. Then make sure the sources being quoted come from scholars with a Ph.D. in a relevant field, such as a person who teaches Egyptology at the university level.

        Boy I suppose the same kind of credibility should be demanded as relates to New Testament and all the early writings of the “Christian Fathers” huh?

        Are you ready to take the Pepsi challenge on the veracity and validity of the early works of fiction penned over 100 years after the death of the supposed Jesus Christ?

        And simply stating someone was around during the infancy of a field of research does not invalidate what they say. You might as well have said “liar, liar, pants-on-fire” it is supported about as much as your claims.

        Egyptology? Wow, how scientific these guys are. These are the same assholes who say that the Great Pyramid in Giza was built in 20 years by a bunch of slaves. When asked how one answer (from a French Egyptology professor) was “why because it was the will of the Gods”. Of course how silly of me Prof…….I should have known that the impossible can magically be accomplished with pure Egyptian Pride. Sure thing…..I doubt I’d be using the Egyptology field of study to support my claims.

        You want to go fact-for-fact on this subject? Like I quote the fine lady and you tell me how what she states is wrong?She’s got some compelling stuff in that book and quite a bit of it from the Christians themselves. The early Gnostic that were later detracted as heretics had some spirited arguments about the existence of J.C. that I’m fairly certain the Church would have just as soon seen gone as have to deal with them now.

  32. Wow, you went all the way to Wikipedia to validate your beliefs. Exemplary research!

  33. If there be no god….then christ or horus is a mute point, a waste of time. With that said, this is what should be being debated if one chooses to do so. Who…. is god? In cathologism as a child, the catholic catechism’s answer to that was ” God is the supreme being who made all things and keeps them in exsistance” circa 1953 till…. ?

    A simple to understand answer for a gullable nieve child of 6. From that came my 6 year old question after pondering this supreme being…..WHAT IS THIS BEING MADE OF? Those priest teaching nor nun’s ever gave me an acceptable answer, can you?

    • JONS1973 on September 12, 2014 at 5:18 am said:

      Catholics believe God is pure spirit, in other words, he’s not made up of anything in the material sense. And since we are confined to a material universe, none of us will be privy to that info until after death. If that does not satisfy you, then I suppose you’ll just have to wait and see which one of us is right. I hope you find the answers you’re looking for, brother. God bless.

      • Thank you for responding, but no i still believe even pure non gmo gluten free fda certified organic “Spirit” has to have some kind of substance – wether or not we know or can perceive it or not. Think of it this way, if god has a mind, emotions, etc., then this pure spirit must be made of something? Just because we are limited to our senses and perceptions, does not mean we can’t postulate the notion that this pure spirit is some kind of material? In fact to think that something as immense as god exist, one would have to conclude that for all he claims to be and do, it would be necessary for him to be something tangible, even if we can’t understand what the spirit is. Since i do not believe in an afterlife……. no, I will not know someday, thus my asking now.

        Thanks again.

        • JONS1973 on September 12, 2014 at 12:29 pm said:

          I didn’t say God had no substance, if you mean it in the philosophical sense. I’m saying he’s not made of material. Material is part of creation. God is not created, he is the creator. I said we are limited in our understanding of the spiritual world because we are confined to the material world. It is this limitation that makes it difficult to grasp the idea that there is more to existence than just the material world. What you are saying about God needing to be made of material in order to perform any actions is evidence of my point.

          • The spiritual world “is” just “unknown material”, because we can’t sense other than what we can sense, does not mean it does not exist! If emotions, morals, intelligence, common sense, etc exsist in this dimension, and your god has these things he bestowed on his creation, namely us, then he has a mind, whether its’ a “spiritual mind” or not! Whether it’s made of fleshy matter and electrical units, nerons that fire etc., and his is higher than that, is of little import to me, “spiritual substance” (non-matter) as we understand matter, and conclude he is not of this substance, does not negate the fact that he is spiritually “”something”” since it is impossible to be nothing and yet exist in any way!

            Since you and millions of others believe that god had no begining or has no end, that he is “eternal” yet in many ways acts like his creation (us), yet has no 3 dimensional matter, being pure spirit, means nothing if “pure” and “spirit” do nothing more than make a statement – at least to me that – your god exist and it has some ” substance” we can not know in our present form, yet none the less it is “something”! Correct?

        • God cannot be described as being made of a particular material for several reasons. First, He is neither “made”, nor created. Second, materials are all elements of the physical universe, which was created by God, and therefore it is incoherent to suppose that He is contingent upon material for existence, when all materials are contingent upon Him for their existence. Third, to say that He is “made” of some material would be to say that He is NOT made of all other materials, which would introduce complexity to what must, by definition, be absolutely simple (being piure act). Fourth, anything that is “made” of something is “made” of a finite quatity of that material. Since God is infinite,  He cannot be “made” of any material. 

           

          • Yes Chesire, any material that we can comprehend, which is a microscopic amount! But as i replied above, before i scrolled down to see your reply, “nothing” can’t exist! So your god can’t be nothing, therefore he has to have substance, otherwise he could not do anything including creating-correct?

  34. DroB4Hos on September 11, 2014 at 10:56 pm said:

    You’re right. Both mythological characters aren’t the same. However, they are both asked versions of am even older character in Sumerian mythology, the god Tammuz, frequently called the only-begotten son or the anointed one. All trinities are parallels to the oldest known recorded trinity.

    • JONS1973 on September 12, 2014 at 5:12 am said:

      Ralph Woodrow completely destroys that myth in his book “The Babylon Connection?” You can buy a copy on amazon for a few dollars. I recommend checking it out.

  35. cristina on September 15, 2014 at 10:45 pm said:

    Horus is a mith, whereas Jesus exist. He was born for humanity’s saviour.

  36. I have to say that I am genuinely stunned at the incapacity of some readers to grasp the fact that the questions of whether or not Jesus exists/existed, whether or not he is divine, and whether or not the Bible is a reliable text are in any way relevant to the question of whether or not specific claims about commonalities exist between stories of Horus, and Jesus. It is truly ironic that outspoken advocates of reason should be so ill trained in logic as to be incapable of spotting a non-sequitor, or realizing its weakness as a basis for an argument when pointed out to them…repeatedly.

    To quote C.S. Lewis, “Bless me, what do they teach them at these schools?”

  37. Pingback: A Non-Practicing Agnostic’s 2 Cents Worth – OR “Now I’m going to hell for SURE” | Debauchery Soup

  38. Written by a true bible basher, you can disprove the horus connection all you like but there Is several religions out there with a uncanny resemblance to Christianity all older than the Christian religion. The truth of the matter is you put your faith in a book that was written hundreds of years after the event and you believe it’s the word of the Lord when the fact is the bible is not only filled with inaccuracies but also probably one of the biggest contradictions in history. I have did I mention also their has been more violence and blood shed in the
    the name of Christianity than any other religion been recorded in history. Yer so to some it up you defend a religion that’s violent, has no real evidence to support it and then have the cheek to slam other religions that contradict it you people are a true example of idiocy minds that are frightened to think for themselves

    • JONS1973 on October 5, 2014 at 11:48 pm said:

      That’s all mudslinging without any substance. If you want to get down to specifics, then let’s do it. Also, the idea that there has been more violence in the name of Christianity than any other religion is patently false. I’ve adressed that here on this blog. Furthermore, I am a convert to Christianty from atheism. I was thinking for myself based on the evidence when I made that decision.

  39. I’m just baffled that anyone would believe these claims about Horus. If I were going to make something up, I wouldn’t be so obvious with the comparisons. All of the claims are ripped off from what everyone knows about Jesus, taking advantage of the fact that most people have no idea who Horus was. No one who knows even the slightest, basic knowledge about ancient Egyptian mythology would take these claims seriously.

  40. Have you seen god? Have you felt him? I have, I have felt it every day, he lights my days, it’s called the sun because that’s all your worshipping and that’s were almost all religion stems from, astrology and that is research I have done for years. I’m I going to explain my research on here? no. Why? Because it does not matter how much research I present people will always find a contradiction. hence people who are blind to facts are idiots. And as for mud slinging I do believe that is what this entire article is about, Christians/Catholics yet again slating something because it contradicts there faith. Do I believe jesus christ was real? Yes Joshua was real, he was a revolutionary who tried to save his people from the roman empire that does not make him the son of god it made him a pissed off man who was sick of oppression in fact he fought for the exact opposite of what your churches stand for and if you have read your hustory and you are stupid enough to question what I mean in this last sentence then I really am talking to someone who hasn’t got the mind to think for themselves. oh and also who in the right mind would put faith on a book that was written from the descendants of the men that murdered their saviour .VERY CLEVER.

  41. You also said that my comment on Christianity is false, so I am asking you to clarify for me which is the most violent religion because apparently research does not apply here. I suggest you do your research before answering this.

  42. Those Egyptian gods are just fantastical metaphors, they can’t even get their story straight! Belief in the Son of the Christian God is much more rational, especially because it was written down by people that knew the story of His life so well, not even that long after he died. Jesus’ legacy is completely original and His biblical persona wasn’t embellished or influenced by any religious figures from non-Christian belief systems which circulated during His lifetime.

  43. Yet again what, over 2 million people in the crusades not to mention the iris and Scottish that were slaughtered for not converting the Witch trials and so on. Do I believe in the horus connection tests because it’s so late true!!!!! NOT! If you have done your research you would realise why the date of the 25th of December is so Important but you obviously haven’t, it’s the date of the winter solstice which was so significant to the ancients and you will find that many religions changed the dates of there saviours/diety/demi gods births to this date and also researching this will explain why it was important why many religions changed so they were also born to a Virgin including yours ( if you really must know ” jesus/Joshua was born the first months of the summer not December) so all of these stories are BS including yours. look the top and bottom of why I have waisted my time on commenting on this website is what gives you the right to contradict any religion when there is little to no proof that yours was real either and you could ask me the same question but it would be a moot point because you did put the story up and you knew it would invite debate. It does not matter if either story is real or not everyone is entitled to there own belief and their freedom to choose for themselves, I really can’t understand how someone who claims to have that much faith in there religion would feel to need to waist their time trying to disprove another, as I said before neither can be proved stop trying to convert people who don’t want to be converted and face the fact that your religion among many others are slowly dying out because informed people don’t want to know anymore. people who were known as devout are now now as fanatics and extremists look to the future instead of been stuck 2 thousand years in the past

    • JONS1973 on October 8, 2014 at 4:38 pm said:

      I guess you’re not going to bother reading the link I posted. I answered most of the nonsense you have written already.

      December 25 is not the winter solstice. The solstice is from the 21st to the 23rd, and the only mention we have of pagans celebrating the birth of one of their gods on that day is in the Chronology of 354 (an ancient Roman calendar). Coincidentally, the calendar has Christmas already being celebrated on it as well. In fact, we have quotes from Church Fathers like Hypolytus who tell us that December 25 was of significance for Christians and the birth of Christ some 200 years before. So if we can glean anything from the historical data, it would not be that Christians “stole” December 25 from the pagans. In fact, it appears to have worked the other way around. I wrote more on this (not that you’re actually going to read it, since you haven’t read anything else): http://www.jonsorensen.net/2011/12/13/christmas-saturnalia-or-sol-invictus/

    • Anger and frustration always favor the defeated. How can man convert the un-convertable? You chose your path, now go.

  44. investigatingeverything on October 23, 2014 at 11:26 am said:

    Well done. Now let’s see you refute the statues dedicated to “Yahweh and his Asherah” (or try to sidestep it by refuting the massive amounts of unquestionable evidence regarding Yahweh as the ancient Israelite name for God and the geographical evidence indicating that at least one statue was found within Israel). I’d also appreciate you not sidestepping it with the “Israel turned from God to worship pagan idols at certain periods” argument when evidence indicates that exclusive monotheism did not take root among the ancient Israelites until a couple of centuries before the arrival of Jesus. Asherah was not worshipped due to the Israelites forsaking God; Asherah was worshipped as a remnant of the pagan Semitic religions that were the sisters and mothers of early Judaism.

    I’d be interested to see your refutations regarding the undeniable linguistic connections between the various Semitic words for God, including the Hebrew-Aramaic “el,” “eloh” or “eli” and the modern Arabic “allah” (or the countless similarities between Biblical and other Aramaic-Semitic accounts, including Sumerian, Akkadian, Hittite, Ugaritic, Phoenician, Amorite, Proto-Sinaitic and, yes, Caananite mythologies, particularly the Genesis creation account). This, of course, despite the fact that several of these Semitic traditions are proven by archaeological evidence to predate the Judeo-Semitic belief system. This would, of course, necessitate reference to and subsequent refutation of Hebrew worship of the gods El-Elyon (who could be argued to be Yahweh, but who was referenced in other Semitic tablets), El Shadai and El Olam (who have been argued both to represent one single “El” and to be distinct gods), the possibility of Yahweh being archetypally linked to Hadad (Baal), and references to Yahweh, including Transjordan and Egyptian, that predate any biblical writings by at least 100 years. I’d appreciate if you could explain Psalm 82:1, too- “Elohim stands in the council of El, He judges among the Elohim (gods).” While you’re at it, maybe explain how Elyon, described in Deuteronomy 32:8 as dividing mankind according to the number of the sons of God (the seventy nations of Genesis 10) bears no morphological connection to the Ugaritic El and his seventy sons.

    There is extensive overlap between early Semitic religious mythologies that makes it very difficult to believe that the Judeo-Semitic tradition is the nugget of truth out of the sea of religions from which it derived. Please do conclusively refute the chronology of Yahwism taking root and excluding all gods in the ancient pantheon, as well as the Kenite hypothesis.

    Or can you explain how Judeo-Christianity–which you probably claim to go back only 6,000 years when humans were created because to claim otherwise would require you to acknowledge the connections between Israelite and Sumerian mythology–is more historically veracious and legitimate than religions that are documented to predate Christianity, such as Hinduism, for which there exists archaeological proof that human beings were alive and practicing it for several thousand years before the Bible accounts are supposed to have happened?

    Oh, and let’s discuss the Shasu.

    • JONS1973 on October 24, 2014 at 5:36 am said:

      I’m not a young earth creationist, sir, and I’m not bothered by the etymology of the word “God.” In fact, nothing in your uber-long comment has anything at all to do with supposed similarities between Jesus and Horus, which is what this article is about. I am also aware that monotheism was not universally accepted by the ancient Jews. This is obvious even in the Old Testament. Not sure why you think that would bother me, though.

      • investigatingeverything on October 28, 2014 at 7:05 am said:

        Simply introducing some new topics for thought, since you since to be in the business of debunking things that conflict with Christian theology. Interested, now, to hear your views on these issues and how you reconcile Judaism being descended from other ancient religions with your Christian faith, and how that interacts with your belief in a literal Jesus and your intellectual and spiritual rejection of any Jesus-myth-evolution theories (((earnest)))

        To be honest, I find debate quite fascinating and invigorating, and when I saw the lively conversations you were having with other commentors about the topic and the way you engaged with them point-for-point in the spirit of intellectual discourse, and saw that your site seems to be based primarily on applying critical thinking and citing sources, I guess I just jumped right in.

        I didn’t mean to imply only that monotheism was simply not universally accepted by the ancient Jews, as though they ‘deviated’ from their ‘original’ God-given monotheism (I thought I addressed that but I’m honestly never very clear when I try to communicate). I was trying to point out that much evidence suggests that monotheism didn’t even catch on *at all* until later centuries, lending weight to the historical idea of Judaism descending from related religions. For instance, the fact that the Bible record doesn’t seem to have sorted out exactly who ‘El’ and ‘Yahweh’ are or how many gods there are for quite a length. The etymology I mentioned because it indicates that the Judeo-Semitic concept of ‘El,’ or God, is directly descended from an earlier conception of a god named El.

        Just to note, not all those who believe in humanity’s existence for a mere 6,000 years are young earth creationists – there are those who believe that humans are simply very recent additions to the earth’s millions-of-years record. Christianity is as varied as the shades of the color spectrum, and I made what seems to be an erroneous assumption.

        Not sure why you assume I’m a man, though.

        P.S. I’m not concise – “uber-long” is my trademark because of a cognitive disability. Oops, this comment was supposed to be short.

    • I concur with investigateverything. I recent refreshed my reading on ancient Sumer and Babylon and it seems obvious that the Semitic tribes (Akkadians) absorbed Sumerian culture, language and beliefs even though they had successfully invaded that territory. It would be foolish to argue with facts like the epic of Gilgamesh which pre-dates the Semitic invasions in clay tablets by 1500 years. It’s obvious where the source of the christian mythology comes from….

  45. Anirban on October 26, 2014 at 5:39 pm said:

    I think you made a very good case investigatingeverything, there are things which are inherited in every religion from the beliefs of the time. Also Christianity would not be an exception. Some of the answers to what you ask are not known to even theologians, as these are elements of research as yet. I think though the points raised are valid…

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